How to Capture Attention Without Clickbait written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch welcomes back bestselling author, keynote speaker, and communication expert Carmine Gallo to discuss his latest audio-original book, Viral Voices: From TED Talks to TikTok. Carmine shares powerful insights into how persuasive communication principles, rooted in ancient rhetoric and modern neuroscience, can help anyone break through the noise in today’s fast-paced digital world. Whether you’re a marketer, entrepreneur, or aspiring thought leader, this episode unpacks why storytelling, structure, and a strong hook are more essential than ever.

Guest Bio

Carmine Gallo is a renowned communication coach, author, and former journalist. As president of Gallo Communications Group, he helps business leaders, entrepreneurs, and changemakers craft compelling messages. His previous bestsellers include Talk Like TED and The Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs. His latest project, Viral Voices, is an audio-first book produced with Macmillan Audio that explores the art of persuasion in the era of digital content. Carmine contributes to Forbes and is a frequent speaker on communication strategy.

Key Takeaways

• Why Audio-Originals Matter: Carmine explains the power of creating a book specifically designed for audio, blending performance, storytelling, and neuroscience for a richer experience.

• The Neuroscience of Attention: From movement on screen to sentence structure, learn what actually hooks attention based on how our brains are wired.

• The Timeless Power of Storytelling: Discover how ancient principles from Aristotle’s three-act structure to the hero’s journey still shape today’s most engaging content.

• AI vs. Human Creativity: Why AI struggles with creativity and why human imagination and emotional storytelling remain irreplaceable.

• Practical Tips for Marketers: How to structure your message, craft irresistible hooks, and use contrast and simplicity to persuade effectively on any platform.

Great Moments in the Episode

• (01:22) – Why Carmine chose to make Viral Voices an audio-first book

• (03:41) – The JFK speech breakdown: what makes a phrase “sticky”

• (04:43) – Why the rules of persuasion haven’t changed, even if the platforms have

• (06:14) – The ancient origins and modern power of storytelling

• (08:03) – How Mr. Beast and Sahil Bloom use Aristotle’s three-act structure

• (10:29) – Nvidia’s origin story: How Jensen Huang hooks an audience

• (12:21) – Why movement grabs attention and what marketers can learn from neuroscience

• (16:48) – AI can’t think different: What makes human communication irreplaceable

• (20:13) – Richard Branson’s balloon crash: Why failure makes a better story

Notable Quotes

“If you learn the ancient art of persuasion, you’ll be able to stand out in the digital world, whether it’s TikTok, a TED Talk, or PowerPoint.”

“AI optimizes for correct grammar. Humans optimize for meaning.”

Where to Listen

Viral Voices is available on Spotify and major audiobook platforms.

Connect with Carmine Gallo

• Website: carminegallo.com

• LinkedIn: Carmine Gallo on LinkedIn

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.856)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Carmine Gallo. He is an American author, communication coach, keynote speaker, and former journalist news anchor with decades of experience helping leaders communicate ideas that stick. He is the president of Gallo Communications Group and a contributor to places like Forbes Leadership Council, or channel, I should say.

He's been on the show for some of his previous books. I think it was talk like Ted, at least. And today we're going to talk about his newest book, Viral Voices from Ted Talks to TikTok, Persuasive Communication Skills for the Digital Age. So welcome, Carmen.

Carmine Gallo (00:29.527)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (00:43.19)

John, thank you. Congratulations on the success of your podcast and Duct Tape Marketing. Glad to see you're still going strong since we last spoke about Talk Like Ted, which was a few years back.

John Jantsch (00:53.134)

Yeah. I thought you were going to say congratulations on like making it this long, you know, but, uh, but, uh, yeah, no, I've, I've, uh, I started my show in 2005. I just really thought it was going to be a cool medium. And, uh, so it, it, it is probably one of the longer running, you know, business marketing shows. So that's why I've, you know, I people that I've had out on five, six times, you know, because they've written books, that many books over that period of time. So one of things I want to hit first is, um, this is an

Carmine Gallo (00:57.512)

Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (01:05.156)

Mm-mm.

John Jantsch (01:22.636)

what you're calling an audio original book. And I think that's kind of fascinating because it, know, most people just write a book and then the publisher says, well, let's get that in a different format and make it audio. I will say that it's come a long way. You know, now people are making them a little more performance based and their sound effects and things like that. But why'd you choose to go this route?

Carmine Gallo (01:47.16)

Isn't it fascinating because you know me, I love to learn new things, experiment with new platforms. And so Viral Voices is what's called an audiobook original that I wrote and produced in partnership with Macmillan Audio, which is a giant New York based publishing audiobook publisher. Unlike a traditional audiobook, which is in most cases a printed book read aloud,

John Jantsch (01:48.515)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:57.464)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:05.72)

Right, sure.

John Jantsch (02:14.167)

Mm-hmm.

Carmine Gallo (02:14.352)

And unlike what you do, which is an ongoing podcast, an audio original is 10 to 12 episodes on a specific topic written and produced entirely from scratch for the audio listener on Spotify and wherever people get their audio books. I think you'll appreciate this, John, through exclusive interviews that I was able to conduct, but also using archived audio.

and archived speeches and history, I have the flexibility and the creativity to really dive deeper into advanced communication tactics like storytelling or vocal delivery or frankly the art and the science of persuasion. So for example, I was just thinking about this recently. I got to use archival sound of John F. Kennedy's famous line in his inaugural speech, ask not

what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Then we cut to neuroscientists who I interviewed, who explain why that line sticks. Why is it sticky? Why is it one of the most memorable lines of the 20th century? Because of things like contrast, placing two opposing ideas back to back, symmetry. Both parts of the line are exactly the same in terms of syllables. Things like

John Jantsch (03:24.558)

Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (03:41.248)

replacing long words with short words, et cetera. So how does that apply to today? Well, if you think about AI, for example, what is the most common expression that you've heard recently on AI? And I bet you've heard this before. AI won't replace you. Someone who uses AI will. John, it's the same sentence. That is an example of contrast.

John Jantsch (04:00.238)

I've said it. I've said it.

Yeah,

Carmine Gallo (04:11.029)

And so you've said it, I've said it. I've heard Mark Cuban say it. I've heard Sam Altman say it. But again, what's fascinating to me about this whole journey that I've been on over the last couple of years is that you can learn, if you learn the ancient art of persuasion, the ancient art, you'll be able to stand out in the digital world, whether it's on TikTok or a Ted stage or using PowerPoint, again, digital.

Because the tools of communication have changed, the human brain has not. Understand the fundamental science behind persuasion and you'll be able to adapt to any new platform.

John Jantsch (04:43.874)

Yes.

John Jantsch (04:50.978)

Yeah, I mean

let's go how far you want to go back caveman Aristotle. mean, they're they're known for actually persuasion. And you know, as you said, I mean, that's really what they were capable of doing. And I do think, especially people that came up in the digital age, I think that a lot of marketers are like, no, the tools are it it changes everything. And it really is true. mean, fundamentally, we've got to get somebody who has a need to trust us enough to give them give us their money. I mean, that's it, right?

Carmine Gallo (05:20.203)

Okay, here's something I'll tell all the marketers today. What's the buzzword in marketing today? Storytelling. Well, I interviewed Yuval Noah Harari, a historian and an author of one of the most famous non-fiction books in the world, Sapiens. And he said that storytelling was a fundamental component of how our species became the apex predator, the dominant species of the world.

John Jantsch (05:35.534)

Mm-hmm.

Carmine Gallo (05:48.482)

because we had the unique ability to tell stories that encourage a large group of people to cooperate with one another. So folks, you did not invent storytelling. This goes back hundreds of thousands of years. But what's fascinating to me is when I get to interview influencers and content creators who may not even know all that history.

John Jantsch (05:58.242)

Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (06:14.093)

but they're still using the same tactics of storytelling that we've known about through hundreds of thousands of years. That's interesting to me.

John Jantsch (06:22.786)

Yeah, mean, storytelling evolved before there was a written language. So there was no way to write down a story. It was passed from person elder to the next person. And I think you're absolutely 100 % right. What are some of the best communicators? I know you talk a lot about Obama in the book, I think. Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (06:47.521)

Yeah, a little, yeah. I do a little bit because I interviewed Obama's former speech writer. So it's more about the words, why they use certain words. Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:53.562)

Yeah, yeah, Yeah, so what do they do that's sort of radically different than, you know, especially marketers who are just tying in the hot cup product?

Carmine Gallo (07:04.915)

right now, especially, it's really important that not only do you study great communicators of the past, but also take a look at the content creators and the influencers and digital marketers who do seem to get it right. And they're creating really interesting, creative, and compelling video. Mr. Beast. Mr. Beast is a perfect example.

John Jantsch (07:12.716)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:28.905)

Mr. Beast, mean.

Carmine Gallo (07:34.188)

Gary Vaynerchuk often talks about the importance of telling a story. But here's the interesting part. If you go back throughout history, you'll know, and you know this, but not everybody does, John. This whole idea of having a storytelling structure, storytelling structure like the three acts structure goes back to Aristotle, all famous Hollywood films, nearly all of them fall into the three act structure. And that is set up, conflict, resolution. Here's the status quo.

John Jantsch (07:38.327)

Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (08:03.617)

Here's the world in which the hero lives in the ordinary world. Here's the problem they face and here's how they are going to resolve the problem and everybody lives happily ever after. Well, I started interviewing people who had a former career like Sahil Bloom is one of the guests who I've interviewed. Sahil Bloom was a finance guy on Wall Street and then created a newsletter and now has quite a popular and strong following on Instagram.

where he explains these complex financial topics in ways that people can understand. So I said, me through the structure. Mr. Beast has a similar structure. Here's the way the world exists today. Here's the status quo. Here's what you've been doing. Here's why if you continue to do what you've been doing, you're gonna fall behind. And here's the solution that you've been searching for. That's how you get people hooked on a video. Hooked, that's the other word they use.

John Jantsch (08:59.682)

Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (09:01.707)

All good content creators use the word hook. How am I going to hook you? More often than not, they are talking about the three act structure. Often not even knowing that it's the three act structure that goes back to Aristotle. So I think if you understand storytelling, not just the buzzword, you can't just say, well, tell a story. No, be deliberate about what that means. What does it mean to tell a story? What does it mean to have a structure?

By following these simple structures, you'll be able to adapt into almost any means, especially on social media. You can create a short form video that's perfectly adapted to the three act structure. But you need to understand the structure first, which is why I have one episode that's just on the three act structure. I have another episode that talks about scenes within three act structure. And I'll use people like Jensen Huang.

Jensen Wong may not be his household name, but Nvidia sure is. He's the CEO and founder of Nvidia. Listen to his interviews, John. It's quite fascinating. He always talks about starting at Denny's. When people ask him about Nvidia and the founding of Nvidia and how it was created, he doesn't start by talking about, it's the first $5 trillion company and here are all the chips that we make that power the AI world.

John Jantsch (10:03.918)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (10:13.358)

Mm.

Carmine Gallo (10:29.813)

Instead, he said, it all started at Denny's, where me and a handful of, you know, and a couple of other friends met at the diner over pancakes and coffee. And we came up with this idea that eventually became Nvidia. But he repeats it in almost every interview. That to me is a hero's journey. He's not starting from the conclusion. He's starting from the beginning. Where does the origin, the spark start? And you know this.

John Jantsch (10:47.043)

Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (10:59.955)

and all, most of the people listening to this know it better than average. If a story starts with humble beginnings, it's more interesting on that arc. And that arc, by the way, at Nvidia has a lot of ups and downs too. And he takes people through this arc until today. That to me, that tells me he's a storyteller. It makes people more interesting and engaging.

as marketers or speakers if you understand how to tell a powerful story.

John Jantsch (11:30.712)

So you mentioned the idea of a hook. And I think a lot of people use that in a lot of ways it's become so important because attention is so fleeting. And so the idea of a hook is it's like, give me three seconds. You got three seconds to tell me why I should listen to this, right? How, unfortunately that sometimes leads to clickbait and to, you know, to really abuse of that idea. So how do you use that effectively?

Carmine Gallo (11:44.099)

Mm-hmm.

Carmine Gallo (11:52.097)

Hmm? Sure.

Carmine Gallo (11:57.56)

First of all, it's not new. I asked all these questions of neuroscientists and people who actually do a lot of brain research. None of this is new. John, do you know how nowadays people say movement? If you're doing something on TikTok, it'll stop the scroll. So you'll have women putting on makeup while they're talking, right? Yeah, they're walking.

John Jantsch (11:59.618)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:05.453)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:15.896)

Sure.

or just even walking while they're holding their camera, right? Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (12:21.613)

You're walking talk, right. Well, guess what? John Medina, a famous molecular biologist who's been studying the brain for some four decades told me, Carmine, that's not surprising because movement captures your attention. It's evolutionary. If something is moving, it could be a threat. Therefore, you focus on it. That's the hook. They're calling it a hook, but the point has always been the same.

John Jantsch (12:38.328)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:45.058)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (12:49.122)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (12:51.491)

People want to know almost immediately. Now, let's separate this from the movement. I don't want to get too confusing, but the hook is absolutely right. Whether it's three seconds or seven seconds, there's a lot of questions about that research as well. So don't just say it's three seconds or seven. No one really knows what it is, but it sounds good. Sort of like the 10,000, you know 10,000 steps.

John Jantsch (13:03.647)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:10.028)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:17.006)

Well, I've always... Right.

Carmine Gallo (13:21.123)

Doesn't necessarily, it's more like 7,300 steps, but 10,000 sounds better. Okay, so let's go with three or seven seconds. I've talked to neuroscientists who say this is not surprising because within the first few seconds of meeting somebody new, the brain is asking questions. Who is this person? Should I trust this person, friend or foe? And the other question it's asking is, should I consume energy listening?

John Jantsch (13:27.65)

me.

John Jantsch (13:37.57)

Yes. Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:45.154)

Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (13:50.862)

to this person. Of course, hook. That's a good point. Look, I don't care if you start within three seconds or seven seconds, but I think the point is well established. Grab people's attention early. You're not writing a mystery novel where you have to save the whodunit for the end. Grab people's attention early.

John Jantsch (13:52.79)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:09.242)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Character development needs to be later. Right. You know, I've always said, cause a lot of times people say, how long should my video be? And I think this is the same, the true of the hook is your hook can be as long as it is not boring, as it is entertaining, as it is addressing the problem that I'm trying to fix. mean, so I think that's how you have to look at it is people tune out cause they're like, this isn't for me.

Carmine Gallo (14:33.795)

Exactly. People don't tune out because it's an hour long podcast. They tune out because it's boring. And I think you bring up a good point. I actually like podcasts like yours that are more like 20 minutes, because frankly, it is hard to keep people's attention for more than 10 to 20 minutes. So you'd have to be really good, have an enormously compelling guest or topic.

John Jantsch (14:36.59)

Heck no. Right.

John Jantsch (14:47.714)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:53.55)

Yeah, that is.

Carmine Gallo (15:02.787)

But most people in general, and this is something else that's well established in the science literature, will tune out of a presentation, no matter how interesting it is, after about 10 to 20 minutes. So again, why go on for an hour? If you're giving a PowerPoint presentation to your boss, to a team, and they give you 45 minutes, don't take 45 minutes. Deliver it in 15 minutes.

wait for the Q &A and if everybody gets done in 25 minutes, they'll be much happier because they got some time back during their day.

John Jantsch (15:33.996)

Yeah, you're hero. So from the neuroscience, were there any surprising insights that particularly are ones that most leaders overlook when they're trying to be persuasive?

Carmine Gallo (15:48.17)

Yeah, there were so many. One of the reasons why I really enjoy doing this whole project is because I learned a lot of things I didn't know. And I'm obsessed with this. I've been studying storytelling and communication skills and writing about it for more than 20 years, for about two decades now. I'm obsessed with it. I thought I knew a lot. There are a lot of things that I did not know, especially when it comes to the neuroscience of AI.

John Jantsch (15:49.742)

Come

John Jantsch (16:11.822)

you

Carmine Gallo (16:18.667)

And I think this is key. well, the reason why I didn't know is because it is new. Most people don't know this stuff. And if anyone ever tells you that they're an AI expert and they know exactly how to crack the algorithm, don't believe it. Don't believe it. Because no one really does know. It changes every day. But the neuroscientists will tell you that here's the interesting thing about AI.

John Jantsch (16:23.854)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:34.117)

Yeah. Well, it's also changes every day too, so.

Carmine Gallo (16:48.291)

AI, as most of you know, most of your listeners know, does not have imagination. So set aside that whole argument about is it conscious? Is it sentient? Is it emotional? Is it human? No. No, they say. Most scientists, most neuroscientists, kind of, you know, they dismiss all that talk because they know what's different. But here's what they taught me.

John Jantsch (16:56.43)

you

John Jantsch (17:04.714)

Is it even intelligence? Right?

John Jantsch (17:14.946)

Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (17:18.527)

And here's a great example. I have this in the Viral Voices audiobook. Did you know that if Steve Jobs had asked ChatGPT to come up with an ad campaign for Apple, it would not have written, think different, and then connect think different to real people like Albert Einstein and Nelson Mandela like the now famous Apple ad.

And so I asked some AI experts or people who study AI or work for chat, GBT and open AI, why? Why would it have not come up with something like Steve Jobs did? And they said, because that's too creative. AI, here's what I was told. AI optimizes for correct grammar. Humans optimize for meaning. So think different works.

John Jantsch (18:02.604)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (18:09.837)

Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (18:14.999)

precisely because it breaks the rules. And that catches people's attention because people like rule breakers, like Steve Jobs. It's really fascinating, John. But if you start delegating everything to AI and not using it simply as a great tool to speed up content creation, to analyze, to research, to help you improve, if you start delegating too much, you lose your authentic human voice.

John Jantsch (18:23.758)

Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (18:44.631)

And then everything becomes AI slop. You you've heard of that term, right? AI generated content. So I think to survive, to thrive, especially in marketing today, you've got to stand out. You've got to be distinct. How? Be uniquely human and celebrate and amplify your uniquely human voice.

John Jantsch (18:44.845)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:48.396)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (19:01.197)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:07.886)

So in these books, this is a terribly unfair question, but in these books where people do lot of interviews with people, I always like to say, who is your favorite or most enjoyable interview?

Carmine Gallo (19:18.519)

Yeah. Richard Branson. I have Richard Branson in this audio book too. Richard Branson loves storytelling and of my, and you know, he's, he's just a fun guy. He's really down to earth for being a guy who's worth billions of dollars and who created Virgin. But he told me the funniest story that I have in this audio book. And that's what I liked about audio books. I could actually talk to people and you get to hear their voice, not just.

John Jantsch (19:22.496)

Okay.

John Jantsch (19:29.666)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (19:38.092)

Right, right.

John Jantsch (19:45.536)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carmine Gallo (19:48.483)

printed quote. And so Richard Branson told me that, yeah, it's very important to grab attention through the stories you tell. And he was talking about marketing and all that. And he said that when his, tried to, he was on a hot air balloon and he was trying to break the transatlantic record for crossing the Atlantic in a hot air balloon. And the first time it crashed, it crashed off the coast of Ireland. And it was, you know,

John Jantsch (19:56.43)

you

Carmine Gallo (20:13.858)

pretty dramatic. And so I've got some news footage, archival news footage from the scene. They almost lost their lives. I mean, it was pretty, it was very serious. But then Richard Branson, and only the way Branson can, said, actually it turned out to be a better story than if I had succeeded because we crashed into the Atlantic. And he goes, and if you take a look at the news footage, the last thing you see going down is a big hot air balloon with Virgin on it. And he said,

John Jantsch (20:17.495)

Mm.

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:30.606)

Sure.

John Jantsch (20:38.126)

Virgin.

Carmine Gallo (20:43.18)

Carmine, a good story is not always a straight success story. You need tension, you need the mistakes and failures along the way. Brilliant, brilliant, but he was looking at it from a marketing perspective, he said, it was a much better story.

John Jantsch (20:47.054)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:54.691)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:59.854)

Well, Carl, and I appreciate you stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you, learn about your work and maybe even find a copy of Viral Voices?

Carmine Gallo (21:11.618)

It's a viral voices will be available on Spotify and any place you get your podcast. And if you'd like to know more about me or simply contact me, if you can remember a good Italian name like Carmine Gallo, I'm very easy to find on the internet. You can go to carminegallo.com or connect with me on LinkedIn. I love that platform as well.

John Jantsch (21:23.265)

you

John Jantsch (21:30.42)

I remember my parents did not drink much, but if they drank, it was Gallo wine. Awesome. Well, well again, thanks for stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Carmine Gallo (21:36.226)

There's a lot better wine these days, but I appreciate it. But I like my wine too.

Carmine Gallo (21:50.092)

You bet. Thanks, John.

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